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trackdaymedia
Joined: Sep 03, 2005
# Posts: 4
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Posted: 2005-Sep-03 11:09
Hi,
I run a webstie, [link]
This is a non profit site that I setup as a place for people to put their motor sport videos. I am involved in motor sport myself and everyone I speak to about the site thinks it is a fantastic idea and supports it. Unlike some other video site, we don't accept or support illegal content such as illegal street racing or copyrighted videos. The site is only for legit motorsport videos and we turn away more videos than we accept (purely for the reasons stated above).
I pay for the hosting out of my own pocket and I do not make one cent from the site. Total data download for the site each month is over 500 Gigabytes.
I thought the obvious next step would be to take the site to the rest of the world and get it listed in the search engines and I beleive that DMOZ is a basic starting point as Google uses the listings in some way to produce their own listings.
I have submitted the site to DMOZ I think 4 times over the last 18 months, each time with a careful and polite description, but it never gets listed.
A couple of months back I politely emailed the editor of the appropriate category asking for any information as to what I need to do to get listed, but there was no reply and no listing.
I can't understand why ? I'm donating this resouce to fellow enthusiest but for some reason the site doesn't even seem to qualify for the basic DMOZ listing.
What am I doing wrong ? Any help would be greatly appreciate.
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gimmster
Joined: Jun 03, 2002
# Posts: 85
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Posted: 2005-Sep-03 14:16
Well,
Once should be enough to suggest the site, twice is allowed to cater for any possible technical problem, more than that is not neccessary and is headed towards spam.
DMOZ is also non-profit and we (each individual editor) work as volunteers, we work where we want, when we want, to build the part of the directory we have an interest in at the time.
We are not, and never have been, a 'listing service' so suggestions are only one way of bringing possibly listable sites to an editors attention when they choose to work in that area.
emailing the editor (once) is a way of drawing an editors attention to a category, but will not force them to work on that category.
You will rarely get a reply due to previous bad experience by some editors who have been harassed in their homes by not very gruntled submitters, have received threats of lawsuits against their businesses, and denial of service attacks on their web sites. A very few have made it a risk to deal with any, who knows which one is going to turn nasty?
What am I doing wrong ? Any help would be greatly appreciate.
Nothing, just forget it and wait. It can (and does) take from minutes to over 3 years for a specific site to be reviewed and/or listed.
If an editor is working in an area and is sorting dates by suggeston dates, you should be aware that suggesting again overwrites an existing suggestion, thus resetting it's date.
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trackdaymedia
Joined: Sep 03, 2005
# Posts: 4
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Posted: 2005-Sep-03 15:23
Thanks for your quick reply.
Just to claify I only submitted those 4 times as the site was building up, for example the first time I submitted I had 50 videos, then after 6 months of not hearing or seeing anything from DMOZ I had 75 Videos, so I thought that the increase in content might be what was needed to get a listing, each time I improve the site and had content added I thought that it might be seen as more 'worthy' by the editor. Also not hearing a thing for months makes you wonder if the listing somehow got lost or wasn't submitted correctly etc etc
I sure won't be harrassing the editor ! Just the one polite email requesting help, I assure you I don't work like that.
I guess I'll just wait then, well actually it's the rest of the world (well the relavent section) that will be waiting and missing out on seeing and using the site, for me, it will simply save me bandwidth.
I must say though that 3 years, actually even 1 year, is a ridiculous amount of time to be left 'hanging' for a simple listing in a web directory, not knowing if you are rejected or if anyone is around to check the listing. I know that DMOZ is run by volunteers and I think that is great, and I am sure that it isn't any one persons fault, but there seems to be something wrong 'organisationally' that you would need to be left waiting and wondering for that length of time. Maybe it's just not enough volunteers, although in the cat that I was submitting to it appears that there where several editors.
It's not so bad for a business site that is able to buy advertising on Google or where-ever, but for non profit sites, it seems a real shame that one of the first steps towards having it publized through normal searching channels, might take 2 or 3 years, indeed I am sure many would become discouraged and give up on their sites long before then.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2005-Sep-03 18:50
>> is a ridiculous amount of time to be left 'hanging' for a simple listing in a web directory <<
Ah, but you miss the point entirely. The ODP does not "give listings". It does not "process submissions". It does not "have a queue".
Editors "build categories". Not "build categories from suggestions", but "build categories from sites that they find by whatever means they find them".
What happens is that there are about 9000 editors - and over 650 000 categories that they can work in. When someone spots that a category needs work - that is they see that what is in the public side can be improved (by deleting out of date listings, moving off-topic stuff to other categories, etc) then they will work on that category.
What absolutely does not happen is that someone says "Oh! There are now over 200 sites awaiting review in category X, so I'll go process them", simply because, from experience in many categories, most of those sites will be unlistable (so editors will spend their time where there is a better hit rate of listable sites) and for a category with over 50 sites already listed, adding even 10 more will probably go unnoticed by almost every one of the people that ever visit that category.
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trackdaymedia
Joined: Sep 03, 2005
# Posts: 4
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Posted: 2005-Sep-04 03:24
So basically if you submit to a category that has gets alot 'bad' or 'low quality' sites submitted to it (goodness knows if that is the problem with my category .. that isn't even something I considered), then the editor won't bother to go through those listings due to the fact that many of the sites are unlistable ! That is crazy, what a judgement to make. You don't bother separating the good sites from the bad sites because their are so many bad sites !
The reason people want their sites listed in the ODP is because, aparently, Google basis the quality of their results on what is in the ODP and Google is the most important search engine to be in. I doubt very many people even look in the ODP for results (except perhaps through Google directory).
If the editors don't base their listings on the submissions to the category, then how do they find new sites, since new sites are not normally not listed in search engines (hence the request to list in the ODP !)
I thought the idea of of a specific editor for a specific category was that the editor would have a knowledge of the category and a passion or some kind involvment in the subject matter of the category. How could someone that knows nothing about Motorsport for example come along to the motor sport category and make a quality judgment on what the Enthuisiest in the Public would want to see if they don't have a knowledge of the category themselves.
[ Message was edited by: trackdaymedia 09/03/2005 10:57 pm ]
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2005-Sep-04 09:06
>> You don't bother separating the good sites from the bad sites because their are so many bad sites! <<
Separating the good sites from the bad sites means reviewing all of the sites - and in some categories most of the suggestions would get deleted (which takes me back to the point made above); so unless a category is in really bad shape and obviously lacking in listed sites, no-one will find it important enough to work there.
However, there are some editors that spend all their time looking through categories hunting for obvious spam and then deleting it - so that when a less experienced editor comes along, most of the chaff has already been blown away.
Many categories have been built entirely from looking elsewhere (than the suggestion pile), but almost everything that is suggested is looked at eventually. There is no timescale for when that will happen, as there is no OverLord Editor telling the volunteers what they must do next. Each editor decides for themselves how much time they want to spend, what categories they want to spend it in, and what exactly they want to do: re-write category descriptions, re-check all listed sites, check for mirrors, delete changed and non-working sites, seach Google for new stuff, mine links from authority sites, or review suggestions. Amajor amont of time is spent combatting link rot - where people change their domain name, or go out of business etc.
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RenKen
Joined: Apr 01, 1999
# Posts: 560
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Posted: 2005-Sep-13 20:12
You know what is so sad about DMOZ now - they obviously don't have enough editors to keep up with all the new sites that are being created. Yet, they have way too much influence over Google ranks. What that means is that Google is relying heavily on an index of sites that just isn't up-to-date.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2005-Sep-13 20:27
The ODP has never said that it wanted to list "all sites". The ODP is happy enough if a category contains enough information about a topic for you to find what you need. It does not care if every site about that topic is listed, or not. In fact most categories contain only a small sample of available sites, but if that covers the topic fully, then why take time out to add any more?
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cbp
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
# Posts: 181
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Posted: 2005-Sep-13 23:41
they have way too much influence over Google ranks.
DMOZ has NO influence over Google. ... Google is free to do with DMOZ what ever it wants ...
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RenKen
Joined: Apr 01, 1999
# Posts: 560
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 14:05
Let me rephrase that, I'm not accusing DMOZ of doing anything wrong. DMOZ can do whatever they like, that's their right. However, what is frustrating is that Google uses DMOZ as a variable in their algorithm. A big variable. In fact, sites which are listed in DMOZ automatically obtain a PageRank of 3/10 once listed in DMOZ. Of course, I can't prove that now, as I haven't been able to get a site listed in DMOZ in over 8 months. Again, I'm not putting DMOZ down. I just think that Google needs to examine the influence that it places on a DMOZ listing.
(Like Google's going to listen to little ole me!)
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macdesign
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
# Posts: 25
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 15:46
>>Of course, I can't prove that now<<
In which case, why make that statement? Since it's absolutely not true.
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RenKen
Joined: Apr 01, 1999
# Posts: 560
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 18:09
Here's an interesting article...
[link]
I'd like to point out the fifth paragraph: "The backlog problem is so huge that many editors have redefined the problem so that it no longer exists."
Also, the article seems to be saying that maybe other search engines aren't drawing on DMOZ as prevalently as they used to -- is that what the rest of you are saying? I know that "in the past" Google used DMOZ heavily in their ranking algorithms, but what I'm hearing cpb and macdesign saying is that now Google no longer uses them so heavily?
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cbp
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
# Posts: 181
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 19:22
In fact, sites which are listed in DMOZ automatically obtain a PageRank of 3/10 once listed in DMOZ.
Absolute rubbish
It only took me a matter of seconds to find these 2 sites that are listed in DMOZ that are <PR3:
ht*p://www.nid driesc.vic.edu.au/
ht*p://www.bosco.melb.catholic.edu.au/
[ Message was edited by: g1smd 09/14/2005 11:52 am ... Reason: Tidied Example URL. ]
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cbp
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
# Posts: 181
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 19:37
"The backlog problem is so huge that many editors have redefined the problem so that it no longer exists."
There is only a "backlog" at DMOZ if you consider DMOZ to be a listing service and the editors role being to process submissions - it is neither. Most critics and that author consider DMOZ to be a listing service ...they need to get over that. Many other directories provide that service. I fail to understand why so many complain about something that is not provided by DMOZ.
An editors role is to build a category of useful resources. The role is not to list every possible site on the topic of the category and its not to process submissions. Submitting a site is nothing more than a suggestion for the editor to consider (and editors are free to totally ignore all submissions, though most do not.)
To build a category an editor uses the following resources (for eg):
1. Personal knowledge
2. Following links on sites already listed and not listed
3. Searching Google and Yahoo, etc
4. Google alerts
5. Print advertisments; signs on trucks etc
6. Submmitted sites
7. Industry publications
8. etc
By submitting sites, you are doing nothing more than providing another means of assistance for a editor to find good sites. The problem is that the submitted sites is the worst source of good sites and is the most inefficient way for an editor to build a category. The best sites are probably never sumbitted (not every one has heard of DMOZ!) - they have just as much right to be considered for a listing to build a category of good resources as any site submitted. As they were not sumitted, they are just a bit harder to find.
From this point of view the "backlog" at DMOZ is an irrelavant concept. The "backlog" really consists of the entire www of sites not listed.
DMOZ is NOT a listing service for webmasters. That servce is provided by a lot of other directories.
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RenKen
Joined: Apr 01, 1999
# Posts: 560
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 21:22
I guess I was looking at DMOZ as a listing service. Thanks for clearing that up.
I do still wonder what influence DMOZ has on Google ranks, though.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 21:49
Very little on its own. It is "just another link".
However as DMOZ is syndicated across hundreds of other sites, the combined effect adds up to being worth "at least several links".
That means you can get the same result by going elsewhere and getting "several decent links".
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cbp
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
# Posts: 181
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 21:51
DMOZ is syndicated across hundreds of other sites
Its closer to 4000 other sites
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RenKen
Joined: Apr 01, 1999
# Posts: 560
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 22:26
Yeah, this is pretty scary, too:
[link]
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 22:52
... although it is maybe 4000 sites, many of those are in "bad neighbourhoods" so probably give you zero benefit.
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cbp
Joined: Dec 25, 2003
# Posts: 181
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Posted: 2005-Sep-14 23:09
Yeah, this is pretty scary,
I always find comments like that and other comments urging campaigns to get Google to drop DMOZ etc etc amusing.
Google is a BIG search engine. They have a lot of staff (?100's) devoted to quality control and tweaking the algorithm and checking results quality etc etc. If they turn one of the algorithm knobs that gives more or less weight to a DMOZ listing, they will know exactly what effect that has on the "global" quality of search results. If they choose to give more or less weight to a DMOZ listing, it will be because it delivers a better overall search results or not.
Who do you think that Google will listen to:
1)There own search engineers/QA people who know exactly what impact it will have on the search results
or
2) The DMOZ bashers in forums.
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